I have been visiting Thailand since 1979 and living here permanantly for the past 8 years. I hold a Masters in English and have been coaxed out of retirement to teach here for the past 4 years. I am not a regular visitor to this site, but I must admit that I have checked out the job section on occasion. I have yet to apply for any of the positions posted here as I have always found applying directly to the school I wish to work with has always been more successful for me. But I must agree with most of the people who have posted comments. The wages advertised on here go from ridiculous to downright insulting. I believe this may be for several reasons.

One being that it would appear ajarn.com is designed for people who hold a TEFL certificate. This is not to say that there aren't some very good instructors with this type of certification. To the contrary, I have had the pleasure of working with a few that are truly dedicated and hardworking individuals. One must consider that a TEFL certificate is not a diploma from an institution of higher learning. A three to six month training course is not closely equivalant to the years of sacrifice and study it takes to receive a degree in education. Although it may be enough to find work in a developing country, it is not recognised, and I believe one would be far pressed to find employment, in a native English speaking country. Therein lies the basis for most of the low wages offered by advertisers on your site.

Perhaps ajarn should stop accepting these "crappy job ads." But of course as Donald points out, "It's a business", and you have a right to be paid for your time.
So what can one do? I further agree with Donald's point that we shouldn't shoot the messenger but instead we should take our complaints to the source. Perhaps if we as instructors went one step further and refused to apply for or accept these low paying jobs the advertisers would be forced to offer higher wages. But of course, therein lies the rub. I must agree with Dan on his point about supply and demand. How can we possibly expect unity from a large segment of, "so called teachers", that are willing to work for, "nothing more than a non immigrant-B"?

Thank you for providing this space for myself, and others, to air our opinions. If nothing else ajarn.com gives us a place to find and consider other points of view. In closing I would like to take one parting shot at all the complainers out there. Thailand is my adopted home. I love this country and her people. It is not perfect and there are many things that must change, but I hope to live out the few years I have left here. We must all take responsibility for the choices we make including the wages we agree to work for. The last time I checked, other than those in incarceration, nobody is forced to stay here. Flights leave daily for all points of the globe. If this country is not to your liking you can leave any time you choose. In other words... "If you can't take the heat, get the hell out of the kitchen."

Marcus

I was sad to see this go, as I was about to ask to be placed on it again, but I agree with your decision, Phil, for why it was abandoned. I was one of the first teachers to use the feature, and I notified you immediately after securing work. But over time, as many teachers began to be placed on the section, I had to wonder how many of them were not finding work, and how many of them had, but didn't give a hoot to let you know. Now my suspicions of the latter are confirmed. But here's an idea. Perhaps you can resurrect the section, but make it a pay-based thing - an advertisement for teachers looking for work. And like your ads that schools place which expire in 20 days (I believe), you can put an expiration date on these too, maybe about 30 days.

Whattya think? Can we pay to place ourselves in the section? (Keep the rate reasonable as we are out-of-work teachers who once earned diddly squat because we are in Thailand)

Phil says - "Thanks a lot Ronald for the kind words. I was very sad to see the 'teachers looking for work' section of the site go too. I started it because one day a young teacher with a Thai wife and baby sent me a heartbreaking e-mail to say he couldn't find work and had no way to support his family. And that's how the Teachers Looking for Work section came about. And within a few days, that teacher got a job offer and started work. I knew I was on to something. I knew there were a lot of teachers out there who could do with the extra help.

However - and I'm sorry to repeat what you have already said or implied - but teachers on that list were just not keeping their promises and letting me know when they had found work. Not everyone on the list was guilty - but most were. And before long the section became nothing more than a stale list of teachers, who in most cases were not actively seeking employment. Unfortunately I didn't have time to go chasing each teacher and ascertaining their current work status. I relied on the teachers staying in touch and keeping me informed. And most of them let me down.

I'm really not interested in charging teachers to put their details up there Ron. It just doesn't seem right. Perhaps a 500 baht donation to my favorite soi dog charity might work though?

Ronald

Overall the teacher's salaries (for foreign teachers) is a joke and becoming more ridiculous by the day. I also agree this site provides lots of valuable information to many foreign teachers here/coming here to teach. The fact is I am sure you do not contact all the newspapers, TV & radio stations every time you read, see or hear something stupid from the media. The point I'm trying to make is that this site, as with all other forms of media, have the right to earn a profit from their business and earn a salary for their labor as well as for their employees, just like you and me have the right to do the same. The one cool thing I really like is that we do not have to work for these ridiculous salaries, visit these websites, read these newspapers etc. That's right - we all have choices. Why not contact the ridiculous employer offering these stupid, low and ridiculous salaries and tell them what you really think of them and tell them what they can do with their funny farm? Don't shoot the messenger. Take your complaint to the source.

Donald Patnaude

I have been in awe of your website since I started teaching in Thailand. The information that this website gives teachers and potential teachers is invaluable. However I would like to see you take a stand for teachers and stop allowing schools to advertise ridiculous salaries. And they are getting more and more ridiculous. Just today I saw salaries for full-time teachers at 15-20K baht! Outrageous! Please stop accepting these ads to help force these schools and thieving agencies to pay a liveable wage. Thank you.

Max

I am a qualified teacher, I hold an MA and have been teaching successfully in Thailand for 6 years, I wanted a change of scenery and when I saw a job advertised in another area, I applied. I received an e mail back asking me to go and have an interview. I duly attended the interview 3 hours away by car. I was met by a young foreign man who took me into the reception area and there I met with the Thai owner. The foreigner conducted the interview as the Thai owner could not speak English. ( If they had asked me, I would have told them I spoke fluent Thai, but sometimes it pays to keep this quiet ).

Anyhow, the interview was conducted with the interviewer looking and speaking at the floor for the entire ten minutes I was there. They did not want to see my credentials. The main problem was that to employ me, I had to pay them 6,000 THB for a 12-hour course Thai culture course. I asked who ran the course and the interviewer announced to the floor tiles that he did. Turns out if you don't pay, you don't get a job, no matter what your experience or qualifications. Incidentially they were looking for 12 teachers, all of which would have had to pay the 6,000 baht - a total of 72,000 THB for a 2 day course - so not a bad profit.
Two days later, I got a phone call from them saying if I didn't want to attend the course, they could cover the cost cover. But I still had to pay 6,000 baht course or no course. Sorry. I wasn't born yesterday.

Rose

Dear Phil (“Supply and Demand” – Postbox 31st March) Kudos for recognizing my facetious use of an embellishment. As my mother used to say, “I’ve told you a million times not to exaggerate.” Of course we all form our opinions based on personal experience. Subsequently, my personal experiences have given me a somewhat different opinion than your own. It does make me happy to hear that you can recall working as a teacher, and that you enjoyed such a rosy time of it. Like yourself, I can recall the “halcyon period” you refer to. However, I personally know of at least six good language schools that closed up shop in fear of these “nonsensical” rules when they were first implemented. How dare the Thai government expect the guests that they pay to teach their children should actually have to learn something about the culture of the students or, even worse, to pass an “impossible” competency test.

Having spouted my sarcastic rant, I would like to reiterate the main point of my original reply to Ronald. Namely that, supply and demand will always dictate the price of any product including labour. Of course any intelligent debate must have a basis in disagreement, and I do ever so enjoy educated criticism. Although you and I may “disagree completely” as to the reasons Phil, I’m sure you must admit that there are simply more candidates for teaching jobs now than in the past. Not only does the increase in traffic volume that your website has enjoyed attest to this, but yes, “statistics are available” to those willing to research them

Further, because or although we differ in our life experiences, I personally feel that these rules to which we both refer have been greatly relaxed and ignored of present, while you may not. The fact, in my opinion, is that due to the rampant, government sponsored racism that exists in Thailand, practically any unqualified, white farang can get a job teaching English here while many competent and educated teachers of dark skinned races cannot. The tone of the majority of letters posted on your site would seem to bear this out.

I would venture that, as myself, those of us still presently teaching English here in Thailand can think of current examples of this disparity. As well, I would go so far as to suggest that most of us have worked with, or know of, at least one holder of a “Khao San Road diploma” whom presently is teaching English here. This of course adds to that age-old market determiner of supply and demand, and is the point I was attempting to make.

Surely you must agree Phil that it is “always dangerous” for any party to force their opinion on others, but even more so for one in an editorial position. But that’s just my “distorted perspective” and I do concede, and strongly defend, your right to form your own.

Dan

Dear Ronald ('How did salaries drop so much - Postbox 28th March)
It's called supply and demand. Six years ago there weren't half as many so called, "English Teachers", in Thailand as there are now. Also, schools were running scared of the new regulations that were implemented at that time concerning qualifications. But, as enforcement has relaxed, even the most prestigious schools are willing to overlook and accept a Khao San road diploma. This has opened the door for all of the party tourists to extend their stay in the Kingdom by simply having another beer while their diploma, complete with transcripts, is printed up by a street vendor. Thus resulting in a glut of candidates willing to work for nothing more than a non-immigrant B. And of course the, "Language Centres", that sell diplomas that aren't worth the paper they're printed on, are enjoying a new flood of cheap, smiling, white faces to sell to their client/students.

Phil says - It's always dangerous to come out with a statement such as 'six years ago, there weren't half as many English teachers here as there are now" when you have no statistics to draw on. And there are certainly no statistics available for the number of foreign teachers working in Thailand at any given time. I actually disagree with you completely. I think six years ago was the 'halcyon period' for English teachers in Thailand. There was none of this culture course nonsense or the need to pass impossible tests. Literally anyone could get a teaching job. Not many folks would say that it has now become easier for teachers, especially the unqualified, to secure a teaching position. I think you are viewing things from your own rather distorted perspective and ignoring the big picture.

Ajarnallo

I first came to Thailand nearly 6 years ago. My first job after I got my CELTA started at 39,000 baht. I've subsequently held posts paying 35,000, 38,000, 42,500, 38,000 and 40,000 baht (in order of the post). Overall, my average has been nearly 39K.

I went home for six months and have now been back in Thailand for five months. As I look for my new job, I am astonished at how many jobs are paying around 30,000 only. I know the job posting says, "At least 30,000." But after I applied and got a response from the few, they informed me that the job starts at 30,000. And so often when I click a job posting to read more about it, that "at least" in the heading turns out to say "around 30,000," or "starts at 30-32,000," etc. I interviewed last week with one of these schools hoping it was a typo. The guy offered me a contract at 30,000. When I queried him about it, he actually said, "Yeah, but we give you accident coverage up to 20,000 baht, so if you get hurt, it will make a big difference in your pay." What? So I need to suffer an injury to add to my pay? And I'm not talking about just a few postings. It seems nearly all (estimate 85-90%) of the postings I read have 30K listed.

What in the blazes has happened to the salaries? Yes, 30K is a lot by Thai standards. But the level of education in this country is minimal and it is largely a traditional economy with low expectations, so the low-average wage is expected. But 40K is not a particularly high salary for someone with a proper degree, a CELTA, professional experience going back over 15 years, and over five years of teaching experience in Thailand. I didn't come to Thailand to save money for retirement. I didn't come expecting to live high on the hog. But I do expect a reasonable wage based on my education and experience.

I guess it's time to look at Japan, Korea, China, and other places to get some respect. Although I'm not 60, like our friend Kevin in the letter below, perhaps I'll be joining him as he widens his search for a job that will respect him and his abilities.

Ronald

Sadly, the older you get, the harder it seems to be able to get a job. Its crazy... all those years of experence and life skills just being ignored. How about setting up an education facility, with obvious suitable educational and business support ( a few independant UK schools and universities) have looked at this idea to make use of the skills that many older teachers have.

We all become unemployable at some stage. Myself I have worked freelance now for well over 10 years. Its given me a great income when times are good, but a little more tough when times are hard. I'm considered totally unemployable by many companies, because I have seen life from the other side. I have become a threat to all those who just loaf their way through life. Its a case of maybe I will ask to many difficult questions, or know too many answers. I'm not a brain washed product of a company HR or PR society. I can think for myself and actually make improvements....Oh that's dangerous... Bangkok dangerous even!

For Kevin.... sorry, it looks like you will have to start your own business, or go freelance or just move on... I hear Korea, China and Japan have a need for the more senior teacher, plus they pay very well. Good luck all the same.

Ian BKK

It seems that it is almost impossible for me to gain another teaching position in Thailand (in government schools and universities) as I have recently turned 60. This is due to a Dept of Education rule. There's nothing I can do about this, but what I want to complain about is that it took me quite some time to find out. Why? Because all of my applications were greeted with silence - i.e. employers simply did not bother replying to my applications. I understand that in Thai culture it's difficult to say "no" but this is ridiculous, not to mention somewhat distressing. I am committed to living in Thailand (I have a Thai wife) but as I have no other income, what can I do? If anyone knows a way out of this dilemma, I'd love to hear about it.

Kevin O'Donnell